Susan Friedmann [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Book Marketing Mentors, the weekly podcast where you learn proven strategies, tools, ideas and tips from the masters. Every week I introduce you to a marketing master who will share their expertise to help you market and sell more books. Today, my special guest is Mary o'. Donoghue. She's a media coach, former post producer for the Oprah Winfrey show, and number one best selling parenting authority who's worked in national television for decades. She draws on her behind the scenes experience to teach disruptive women nonfiction authors how to get high profile publicity and confidently do national media interviews that drive book sales, boost business, and transform thought leadership into lasting impact. Her clients have reached audiences of more than a billion people so far. Wow.
Susan Friedmann [00:01:00]:
Mary, it's such an honor to welcome you to the show and thank you for being this week's guest expert and mentor.
Mary O'Donohue [00:01:09]:
Oh, thank you so much. As you know, I'm a longtime listener, so it's an absolute joy to be here. Thank you.
Susan Friedmann [00:01:15]:
It's a joy to have you. And with your incredible background, I mean, you've reached billions of people or your authors have reached billions of people. It's unbelievable. I wish I could say that we've reached 75,000 downloads so far, but we're on our way to the first billion. How's that?
Mary O'Donohue [00:01:34]:
Yes, you are.
Susan Friedmann [00:01:37]:
We're going to be talking about high profile publicity. Let's get this started on the right footing because, and I've shared this with you in the past, that I've got authors who the first thing they say to me is, I want to be on national television. I want to be on the Oprah show. I want to be on Good Morning America. Talk to us about the biggest myth that there is about getting on these high profile shows.
Mary O'Donohue [00:02:11]:
I think there's many myths about publicity, but really the biggest one, I think is that you have to have an in at that media outlet. You have to know someone on the inside or have a publicist who knows someone and has a connection to someone on the inside. But that's not really true. If you have relevant content to that media outlet and you have expertise, as most nonfiction authors do have expertise in a particular topic, then you're a viable media guest. The thing that will help you get national media is if you've done local, regional media first. Because if you're going to go on Good Morning America, they're going to want to see, have you done live television before? Maybe you're from St. Louis. If you can show them that you've done television interviews in St.
Mary O'Donohue [00:03:01]:
Louis, ideally, that are live, like on newscasts in your market, then that's going to reassure that producer or associate producer that you can handle the pressure of being on live television. Because it's a lot of pressure. And what people don't realize is that person who books you is taking a risk. This is a career risk. I've spent most of my life in edit rooms and control rooms. Control rooms are where the crew is when we are taping a show, for example, or doing a live show. And I have seen producers or associate producers who booked a guest who sadly didn't do well. And then the executive producer says, I would like that associate producer.
Mary O'Donohue [00:03:45]:
We call them APs. Can you bring the AP into the control room, please? And that poor AP has to face the music. Was this person experienced? Had they done media before? They don't want to say no. They want to really have done their due diligence to make sure that you have everything you need to be a good guest. And they'll pre interview you as well most of the time for national media. But they want to see you have experience. So I know authors will start by saying, yes, I want to be on the Today show or whatever. But the thing is, you need to have experience and you need to be very strategic.
Mary O'Donohue [00:04:18]:
You don't need the connection. And I've had someone tell me directly, well, media works just like corporate America. And I said, no, that's not true. Because in corporate America, if somebody gets hired because they have a connection inside the company and that person doesn't do well, and maybe it's really bad, they can be fired, they can be let go and nobody necessarily hears about it. But if you do an interview on live television, that's really bad. That reflects on that media outlet. It lives online forever. They can't escape it.
Mary O'Donohue [00:04:51]:
Their reputation is on the line when they book you, so you really want to get that experience beforehand. It isn't based on who you know, because they're not willing to take that kind of risk on helping a friend of a friend. I tell people a media interview is not a favor. It's a strategic booking on the part of that producer.
Susan Friedmann [00:05:12]:
You bring up a really good point, and that is remembering the local market first. I think authors, because they're looking sort of with bigger eyes at what's out there, that they forget what's on their doorstep and that could be enormously significant is just. And getting, as you said, that experience on regional TV shows, chat shows, on the news, just a little blurb about your books just come out. You're a local author. That carries a lot of weight.
Mary O'Donohue [00:05:48]:
It does. And it gives you that experience and confidence. Because I'm an author, too. I'm a parenting author. And when my book came out, I was traditionally published back in 2010, a long time ago now. I did live television. I did talk shows. I did all sorts of things.
Mary O'Donohue [00:06:04]:
I did radio. I did magazine and newspaper interviews. All of that was great. And when I did a national talk show, I flew to New York and I did a talk show. It's not on anymore, but I did a talk show. And it was so helpful because I really understood. Of course I understand what goes into a talk show, because I've spent my life on talk shows pretty much. But I really understood from a guest point of view what was required of me.
Mary O'Donohue [00:06:31]:
And I knew that I had a short amount of time to implement the tips that I was sharing and everything. If that was my first interview, it would not have gone as well as it did.
Susan Friedmann [00:06:42]:
Yeah, I mean, I remember my first. I was on cnn, one of the. I believe it was business news. It was a while ago. It was intimidating, especially when the interviewer were in the green room and he doesn't want to have anything to do with me until the point where he has to interview me. And I'm like, okay, what am I, like, mincemeat here?
Mary O'Donohue [00:07:09]:
Yeah.
Susan Friedmann [00:07:10]:
I was like, oh, that wasn't terribly welcoming. That was that particular interviewer. Let's talk about actually pitching yourself to the national media. How would you even go about that?
Mary O'Donohue [00:07:25]:
Well, first of all, before you pitch, you need to understand who your audience is, because otherwise you're just randomly pitching. Like when you throw darts, you don't just randomly throw them all around the place. You try to get at a bullseye. It's the same thing with pitching. So you have to understand where your audience is. So, for example, as a parenting author, I would be thinking in terms of, okay, will my audience read Parents Magazine? My audience would watch the parenting segment on a particular show. They would read a parenting column in the newspaper. And so that's where I focused my pitching, because I knew who my audience was.
Mary O'Donohue [00:08:01]:
It was parents of children age 6 through 12. They could have younger, they could have older, but they needed to have children in that age group. Because my book was geared towards them. I wrote a book called when youn say thank, you, mean it and 11 other lessons for Instilling Lifelong Values in youn Children. So it was really geared with fun exercises, interactive exercises to do month by month with very various different character Traits like compassion and gratitude, for example. I would really need to know where are those people? Because you can talk about wanting to be on the Today show, but if you have a niche audience, that's not the ideal place for you. Maybe I would really think in terms, first of all of who is my audience? And then where are they consuming media? Then I would focus on those media outlets. Before you mentioned people want to be on Good Morning America or they want to be on anything Oprah's doing, which I don't blame them, but they have to think in terms of what's the best place to be for my audience where I am right now.
Mary O'Donohue [00:09:00]:
And so reaching out to the media starts there. And then I think the mistake most people make when they send a pitch, because I've been on the receiving end of many a pitch, especially when I worked for Oprah, is that they, they reach out with something like this. They start with, hi, I was hoping you could help me. And I called that the seven word pitch that costs you publicity. Because I never read beyond those seven words. I was hoping you could help me because a media person is not in the business of helping random strangers, which sounds so mean. And I don't mean it to sound mean, but it's just true. We work on deadlines, we're understaffed at many media outlets these days.
Mary O'Donohue [00:09:44]:
We're doing the job of multiple people and somebody who we don't know reaches out and says, can you help me with something? That's not how you succeed. I wouldn't recommend doing that. You have to really look at what is an effective hook that you can use to get that person's attention. Because people want to pitch the media, they focus on what's going to be in their pitch and that's very important. But you also have to think about what it's like to receive a pitch on the part of the media. And I tell authors, your pitch to the media is an interruption. That's the bottom line. It is an interruption.
Mary O'Donohue [00:10:21]:
It can be a good interruption or bad interruption. And I use this example, if you're a parent and you're home working in your home office and you're busy on your computer and your 10 year old knocks at your office door and says, hey mom, I want you to make me an omelet because I really like those Spanish omelets you make and I'm really hungry, that's an interruption, right? That has disrupted your workflow and now somebody's asking you for something. But if that same 10 year old knocks on your door and your busy day in your home office and says, hey, Mom, I was just making myself a sandwich. I thought, mom's been in there a long time. I'm going to bring her a nice cup of her favorite tea and a sandwich because she's got to be hungry. That is also an interruption, but that is someone who is thinking about your needs before themselves. Those are the types of pitches that get results.
Susan Friedmann [00:11:12]:
You've got to do your homework and what you're saying. I know that I've shared this story with you. One of my dear friends was on the Oprah show and it wasn't the right fit for her. She was in leadership and that's not the market that Oprah was talking to. And she didn't sell one single book as a result of it. But she was still on the show. So you can never take that away from her. But the fact is that it didn't do anything for her other than obviously the kudos of having the ego of saying, yes, I was on the show.
Mary O'Donohue [00:11:51]:
But I'm sure she would have loved to have results. And I would be curious to see if her interview was strategic or if I worked on it. I might have worked on it back in the day. I worked on a few thousand of them, but exactly right. It's such a good point, Susan, because you have to be in the right place for your audience. And that's like I said, that's the first step before you pitch. You've got to know why you would pitch that media outlet.
Susan Friedmann [00:12:12]:
Yeah. Because again, you want to stand out from the crowd. I mean, with your book and with you yourself, your personality, that's got to come through. Because one of the things that fascinates me, and you see this a lot, for instance, on some of like CNN where they have the same echo experts who come back every time they want to talk about the economy or finance or gardening or whatever the subject might be, they've got their experts. How do you become one of those experts?
Mary O'Donohue [00:12:49]:
Well, first, I'll tell you what we internally call them. I don't know if you know what an FOS is.
Susan Friedmann [00:12:54]:
No, I hope it's good.
Mary O'Donohue [00:12:56]:
It is good. It's called a friend of the show, an fos. It's the television or radio equivalent of trusted source in print, in newspapers or magazines. This is someone we can rely on. How you become a trusted source or a friend of the show is first of all, you consume that media. So let's say it's a television show that you watch frequently. You really want to pay attention to how those people do the interviews. How long are the interviews, what types of questions do they ask? Become an educated audience for that media outlet where you want to appear.
Mary O'Donohue [00:13:34]:
It's also respectful to do that, right? Because when you do pitch them, you can say, I've been watching this show for years. And it will also help you during the interview because you will know the cadence of that interviewer, you will know their style of interviewing. You'll be much more prepared. So I think that's really key. And then deliver, deliver the interview that you said you would. In other words, if you've pitched something and you're going to talk about these three strategies for something on a business show, for example, make sure that during that interview you edit yourself, especially if it's live, so that you know you can get those three strategies in there and you're not taking too long to, you know, tell your origin story. And going on and on about when I was one year old and then I was two year old, I was three years old, I did this right? You know, like, be aware, this is a five minute interview. I have to really be concise.
Mary O'Donohue [00:14:26]:
That's really important. And another thing that is not glamorous but super important is follow the producer's instructions to the letter. Do exactly what the producer tells you. If they say we want you to come with these props, come with those props. If they say we want you to be here on time, camera ready, that means your hair and makeup is done, you are in your wardrobe. If they say we're going to do hair and makeup here, you'll be in the studio doing a rehearsal on your demonstration. Let's say you're going to do some sort of a visual demonstration on the set. There's usually a specific part of the set for that, so they'll walk you through it.
Mary O'Donohue [00:15:02]:
Then you're not going to come camera ready. Most likely you're going to probably be in casual clothes, you know, and then you're going to go into the green room and change clothes and do hair and makeup and all of that. When you ask those questions, you know, what time should I be there? And you ask if you should be hair and makeup ready and all of that camera ready, you'll come across as media savvy. So that's the first thing that will make them feel more relaxed about booking you. And then when you deliver on the things you said you deliver, that will make them feel even more comfortable. And I'm telling you, as someone who spent years of my Life in control rooms. I've seen, gosh, many. I always say I've worked on more than 10,000 high profile media interviews and television.
Mary O'Donohue [00:15:45]:
It's a lot more than 10,000, but let's just use that number. I have seen more than 10,000 people walk out of the studio after their interview. And I have been in the control room when the control room reacts to that interview. Now, if it's a fine interview, there's not much of a reaction. If it's a terrible interview, there's a reaction. And then the producer, associate producer has to deal with the executive producer's reaction. If it's a great interview, we're all like excited and happy. And what often happens is as that guest is walking back to the green room from the studio, the executive producer is telling the producer, hey, before she leaves today, book her again for the next interview.
Mary O'Donohue [00:16:25]:
That's how you become a friend of the show. You follow instructions. You do the interview you said you would do. You deliver your professional. You're kind. Sometimes people can be very abrasive with associate producers and production assistants. I've seen people cry because the guests were abusive to them. Don't do that.
Mary O'Donohue [00:16:46]:
Be kind. If you get delayed, be kind about it. Oh, my gosh. The guest in front of you went long. We're going to have to redo your flight. We're going to have to push it back. Okay, that sounds great. No worries.
Mary O'Donohue [00:16:58]:
Just be kind and thoughtful and that's really a great way to make that producer feel comfortable and safe and secure in booking you again. They can feel confident that you're not going to let them down. Yeah.
Susan Friedmann [00:17:11]:
Because as you said earlier, they're taking a risk on you. They don't know you and they think you'll be a good fit. You've got to prove that. So, yes, you mentioned wardrobe and I know, I mean, this is probably a huge, huge subject. I've heard people who say I've got to know what the color of the background is so that my clothes don't sort of blend in and don't clash. Are there some quick tips about wardrobes? Some do's and don'ts, some jewelry?
Mary O'Donohue [00:17:43]:
Oh, yes. Yeah, that's a great question. I'm thinking about some things that have happened during interviews that I've worked on. Yeah. I think that sometimes guests will be concerned about the background. You know, if they're going to wear a blue jacket and the set is blue, that they might blend in. Yeah. I mean, you pay attention to the show, but the lighting is pretty Sophisticated on talk shows and television shows.
Mary O'Donohue [00:18:05]:
So there's backlighting to differentiate you from the background. But you should watch the show. That's a good idea. So you know what the set is. A lot of times authors will wear their branding colors. If someone has a yellow book cover or a pink, more of a magenta book cover, you know, I would often see that author wearing like them a magenta jacket. And that's totally fine to kind of. You don't have to match your book.
Mary O'Donohue [00:18:29]:
But I have seen that a lot and that's fun and that's totally fine. Having that signature look, that's great. I recommend that authors wear a jacket or something with a V neck. I'm wearing sort of a boat neck top now. And if I put a microphone on, it would be right here and it would be kind of close to my mouth. And so it might make me like pop my peas or it might just make the audio sound. Not ideal. But if I was wearing a jacket and I'm wearing a microphone that's attached, think of it like a paperclip.
Mary O'Donohue [00:18:59]:
Like if you could put a paperclip there, you know, the microphone is attached, it's going to be a little bit lower and it's going to give a better audio quality. So I would recommend always wear some sort of jacket or V neck. The mic, they're called wireless mics, but they have a little box that goes with them and that box comes with a hook. And so if you're wearing a skirt or a pair of pants, they'll generally sort of hide the wire because there are wires to that battery pack that'll kind of go under your jacket and then around the back. And then typically you want to be able to hook that battery pack on a pair of pants or a skirt or something. That's kind of what it's going to be like on. That's ideal. That's the best type of thing to wear a jacket and then pants or skirt.
Mary O'Donohue [00:19:41]:
Now in terms of jewelry, remember now we just put a microphone on that is on sort of in the middle of our chest, right? And it's right there on the jacket, the lapel of the jacket. And if I'm wearing a long or chunky necklace that is going to be hitting the mic as I talk and gesture. And we had. I worked on a show where there was a well known television actress and she was very funny and we were taping a show and she had a massive statement necklace on and every time she moved it hit her microphone and the director had to call it and say, stop taping, stop. And we had to have her walk in again, do the whole thing. And she had to take that necklace off because it was huge. We had to make an adjustment, and then the audience had to wait. Yes.
Mary O'Donohue [00:20:27]:
Same thing with jingly bracelets. If you're going to use your hands and your bracelets are going to jangle past your mic, that is not a good decision. So keep your jewelry to a minimum and think about how you move. And you don't want your jewelry to be affecting or touching the mic at.
Susan Friedmann [00:20:44]:
Any time, however good it does look.
Mary O'Donohue [00:20:46]:
Yes, it might look good. We don't want you to do that.
Susan Friedmann [00:20:51]:
While we're on that thread, let's talk about mistakes. What are some of the biggest mistakes that you've seen authors make during media interviews?
Mary O'Donohue [00:21:02]:
Oh, my goodness.
Susan Friedmann [00:21:04]:
One, maybe two, if we have time. Three.
Mary O'Donohue [00:21:07]:
The main mistake authors make is that they want to sell, sell, sell their books. And the problem is, is that that is not a sales opportunity. I tell authors, if you are focused in sales during that media interview, you better have paid for it. In other words, is it an infomercial? Because if it's not an infomercial that you've paid thousands of dollars for, you're not there to sell. Media is marketing. You are there to market your book. And the best way to market your book is to share your vast expertise. Share tips openly.
Mary O'Donohue [00:21:42]:
Don't say when you get asked a question about a particular strategy, oh, well, that's in chapter five of my book. You'll have to read my book. I'm not going to say that or you have to buy my book. Do not do that. I hear that. It drives me crazy because that just turns off readers or potential readers. You want to share what's in chapter five openly so that they'll say, wow, my gosh, if that's in chapter five, what's in all the other chapters? I'm going to get this book because they're going to want a deeper connection. So it's that idea of trying to sell and withholding information that's not wise for a media interview.
Mary O'Donohue [00:22:16]:
Be generous with the information that you share so that people can really be helped just by listening, by watching, by reading. I mean, Susan, your podcast is famous for this. I've told you. I was listening to one episode I pulled off the side of the road into a parking lot so I could write down what the guest was saying. I go read the transcripts because there's so much value in what you provide to your audience. That's what you want to do. You don't want to withhold. You don't want to try to sell, sell, sell.
Mary O'Donohue [00:22:44]:
You are there to serve that audience, and that's the focus.
Susan Friedmann [00:22:47]:
Yeah, I always feel that. Thank you for acknowledging that, because it really is an important part of why I do this. And I always tell my guests, I say, if listeners can say, I got one thing that I can do after the show, I feel, wow, that's successful. And it can be one listener with one thing. It's fine. That fits. Now, I know that you have a strategic tool that is often underutilized for authors. And we were talking a little bit about how I get bios, often from guests that I have to rewrite.
Susan Friedmann [00:23:31]:
They are just not good at all. Talk to us about this.
Mary O'Donohue [00:23:35]:
Yeah, so what I call it, a media bio, is really an effective strategic marketing tool when it's done correctly. I call a media bio your brand ambassador. Because if I'm a media person and I'm looking to book you and I see your website, for example, I go on your website, if I see this bio, that is very strategic and it helps me as a media person understand why you'd be a good person to book. You'd be the right expert to book. I'm more likely to book you. And I'll give you an example. So on the back of your book, there's a lovely bio, right? And this bio might say she enjoys skydiving and taking river cruises and she runs marathons and she's got triplet daughters and she has three corgis or whatever, Right? All these things that are very interesting on the back of the book and might make you as a potential reader think, oh, this is cool. Yeah, I like that.
Mary O'Donohue [00:24:34]:
I also have twins or whatever. I am a twin or a triplet or, I don't know, I love corgis. Right? We'll say, okay, then I'm going to feel more likely to maybe buy that book because I feel a little bit of a kinship with that author. But a media interview is different. You want that bio to illustrate and convey your authority on that particular subject. If you are there to talk about personal finance, we want to see that you are a finance expert. We want to get some credentials in there. Then that is going to make us feel like, wow, I'm going to listen because I want to learn more about personal finance, not about corgis.
Mary O'Donohue [00:25:14]:
And by the way, the danger of some of those personal details, which are lovely on the back of the book, but the danger of having Those in a media interview is that that person is reading that bio to introduce you. Let's say they just went to your website and got it or they got it from the back of your book. That's not strategic. But let's say they did that because that's the easiest thing for them to do. They're learning about you for the first time. That person interviewing you is probably reading that for the first time. They probably. Maybe they're doing a radio show and their producer has brought that to them.
Mary O'Donohue [00:25:49]:
Maybe they're doing a television show. Whatever. They're reading about you as they look at the script. Right. So they don't know you personally. They probably haven't read your book. This is all they've got. And if it says, and she has four corgis, their first thing out of their mouth might be, oh my gosh, the corgis make me think of the queen.
Mary O'Donohue [00:26:07]:
Did you like the queen? I love the queen. And we're talking about the queen or corgis. But you might be there to talk about personal finance. It's going to distract the interviewer and derail the interview. And it's you derailing your own interview and wasting valuable time talking about details that are not relevant to the audience and to the subject at hand. And it's very important to craft specific media bios. You can use the same one for all interviews, but I do like a long, short and what's called a mini. A mini would be like Mary o', Donoghue, strategic media coach for women nonfiction authors, or Mary o', Donoghue, number one best selling parenting author.
Mary O'Donohue [00:26:47]:
That's a mini bio. Like it's just little, but you actually want to. When you're booked for a media interview, reach out to that media outlet and say, I'm so excited. I want to confirm the interview at this studio at this time. I will come camera ready, and here is my bio to make it easier for you. And then that bio is not the bio on the back of your book. It is that strategic media bio that conveys specific points about why you are the right person. And it doesn't have to have every award you've ever won or every qualification.
Mary O'Donohue [00:27:20]:
It shouldn't have any initial. So if you're a licensed clinical social worker, spell that out. Do not say lcsw. I believe that's like spell out what you are. Because the audience won't necessarily know. But really think in terms of this is the bio that conveys my authority and that's the kind of bio you want. Dynamite People don't even think about it. They just use the one on the back of their book.
Mary O'Donohue [00:27:43]:
But a media interview has a different purpose than I love it.
Susan Friedmann [00:27:47]:
I think this is, this is fabulous. I mean, this is such a great nugget and it's like a wonderful way to segue into you telling our listeners how they can get hold of you because the work you do is phenomenal. I don't know anybody else who does it the way you do it. Share your details.
Mary O'Donohue [00:28:09]:
Yeah, My website is maryodonohue.com. You can go there and join my email list and you'll get a special gift and get in my community and we would be delighted to welcome them.
Susan Friedmann [00:28:27]:
Excellent. And I'll put that in the show notes and I know you've got a program coming up shortly and we'll put all that information in the show notes as well. And Mary, as you know, you know, we love our guests to leave our listeners with a golden nugget. What's yours?
Mary O'Donohue [00:28:49]:
Well, mine is something I said to an author once and now I say it to almost all the authors I work with who are hesitant to promote themselves or their book. I have to sell my book. I have to promote. I'm not a self promoter. I say, well, you put your gifts into this book and your gifts are not for you, they're through you. Right. These gifts are not for you to hoard your ability. We were using the example of personal finance.
Mary O'Donohue [00:29:16]:
If you're a personal finance expert, don't hoard that genius. Share it with people. When you think in terms of it is not self promotion, it is serving people to share my gifts, then I think that's such a critical mindset shift. My tip would be your gifts are not for you, they are through you. Don't hesitate to get the word out about your book and your message.
Susan Friedmann [00:29:39]:
It took me a long time to learn that and it's so, so valuable. Thank you. Because it really is. Share your information because that's what's in the book you're selling you and what you know, it just happens to be bound up in this book. Mary, you're amazing. I know you could share a lot more and it's an opportunity to bring you back. Just like you said with that assistant producer or the producer. I'm all of those people in one, so I have the power to do that.
Susan Friedmann [00:30:15]:
Thank you so much, listeners. If your book isn't selling the way you wanted or expected to let's jump on a quick call where you and I can brainstorm those ideas together to ramp up your sales. Because you've invested a whole lot of time, money and energy, and it's time you got the return you were hoping for. So go to bookmarketingbrainstorm.com to schedule your free call. And in the meantime, I hope this powerful interview sparked some ideas you can use to sell more books. Until next week, here's wishing you much book and author marketing success.
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