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Susan Friedmann [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Book Marketing Mentors, the weekly podcast where you learn proven strategies, tools, ideas and tips from the Masters. Every week I introduce you to a marketing master who will share their expertise to help you market and sell more books. Today my special guest is Ana Bartolucci, PhD. Anna is a writing mentor, USA Today best selling author and psychologist. She's written 20 plus novels under her pen name Cecilia Dominique and two nonfiction books. As herself, she combines her love of creativity and psychology in her company Psych Up Academy where she guides heart centered entrepreneurs from the inkling of an idea to the first draft of their world and business changing books. Ana, it is a pleasure to welcome you to the show and thank you for being this week's guest, expert and mentor.
Anne Bartolucci [00:01:00]:
Thank you so much for having me, Susan. I've been looking forward to it.
Susan Friedmann [00:01:04]:
Anna, you have a specialty in being able to inspire a blend of fiction techniques with nonfiction writing. Let's start there. How do you do that? What does that involve?
Anne Bartolucci [00:01:21]:
That's a great place to start. Basically, what I realized when I started writing my own nonfiction book, and that was after I had published over 15 fiction, was that story is at the heart of everything, whether it is fiction or nonfiction. And when it comes to nonfiction, what we're doing is taking our readers on a journey. So whereas with fiction that is having them identify with the hero zero and bringing them through the process, with nonfiction, we are still bringing our readers from a place where they are doing, thinking or believing something that is not helpful for them and bringing them through a process to where they are transformed and they are able to, whether it's in your world, whether it's market their book or maybe it is growing their business with your signature method, they're able to solve their problem and most importantly, get past their internal and external obstacles in order to do so. I realized as a psychologist that that's essentially the same thing I'm doing with my patients. It's whether we call it internal or external obstacle or these core beliefs that are driving their anxiety, depression and sleep problems, like everybody has a challenge and it's our job as writers or in my case also as a therapist to help them get through it.
Susan Friedmann [00:02:56]:
I love that. And it's so interesting because I've resisted story for so long, I just sort of felt I've got no stories until someone said to me, that's garbage. Everybody has got stories and it's a matter of how can you relate those stories to a skill, a technique, something that you want to teach people. Because so many of the nonfiction Books are all about teaching a method, teaching a system, ways to do things, incorporating a story that will help with that particular skill or process, et cetera. What have you found has been the best way to do that? How could you relate one thing to the other, which could be totally different?
Anne Bartolucci [00:03:47]:
One way that I really find is helpful is to have people look at myth and fairy tale structure, because these are the stories that are hardwired into us. We've been hearing them, reading them, watching them our entire lives, and to look and see, okay, what are the beats in those stories? And how can I bring these beats to the path of transformation to my nonfiction reader? And it's interesting because this is both on the book as a whole, but then also including case studies, perhaps from your own experience personally, or perhaps from your work with your clients, because having those bits of narrative both break up the flow of information, which can get overwhelming and helps the reader to stay engaged. Because are you going to be more interested if somebody says, let me tell you about this thing I learned last week about book marketing or, oh my gosh, did you hear what so and so did to market their book? I couldn't believe that it worked. I mean, you're going to be way more curious about the second one, right?
Susan Friedmann [00:05:02]:
Very much so. And the word imagine, too, I believe, is such a powerful word when it comes to explaining anything. Just imagine how you'd feel if your book sold hundreds of thousands of copies.
Anne Bartolucci [00:05:18]:
Right? Yeah. Time travel to that future point.
Susan Friedmann [00:05:22]:
Yes. I've noticed with many of my authors that self sabotage is key. I mean, it is one thing that often stands in their way of being successful. How can storytelling maybe shift that? Is there something about storytelling that can help them maybe overcome that?
Anne Bartolucci [00:05:49]:
Yes, in a couple of ways. So first we have the validation that it is a normal part of the process. As authors, we are not immune from our own transformations as we write our books. And as I tell my mentees and my students, you're going to come to a point where you hate not just what you're writing, but every single thing you have written in your entire life. And this is normal. If you look at romance fiction, for example, there is always that black moment that all the hope is lost moment that you have to get your characters through in a convincing way to come out to the other side. As an author, when you come to that all hope is lost moment, you know, it's part of the process, and that is part of your own author story. And then there's also just that when you hook your nonfiction Both your process and what you're actually writing to myth and fairytale structure, it gets to be a lot more fun.
Anne Bartolucci [00:06:52]:
And it's really hard to self sabotage when we're having fun.
Susan Friedmann [00:06:56]:
Yeah, and I think that's such an important word, fun. People don't often think of it as fun, and particularly when it comes to the idea of selling or marketing their book. There's one thing you and I talked about before is writing the book. And so many authors think, oh, well, I've done that, finished. That's something else I can check off on my list. For me, that's when the journey just begins and when you can take it now and put it out to the world and let people see and read and learn from you. There's just so much in that. So you're taking it to the next stage.
Susan Friedmann [00:07:36]:
Again, talk about your. How does that shift in terms of, let's say, story or the emotional skills characteristics? How do those play a part in.
Anne Bartolucci [00:07:51]:
Marketing, just to make sure? Well, if you think about it, there is your next black moment, right? It's like, I've got this book and oh no, what if nobody wants to read it? It's way easier to just hold onto the book and not market it so that you don't have to potentially face that truth. And when it comes to stories like, okay, there is a villain that is living in your brain that is trying to keep you safe because our brains want us to stay safe, our nervous systems want us to stay alive. So we don't want to have to face these villains or these demons. So again, acknowledging that, saying, okay, thank you for wanting to keep me safe. I appreciate that. I was like, talk with my anxiety patients. Thank you, brain. And I'm going to do this anyway.
Anne Bartolucci [00:08:41]:
And it can often be, okay, what is the first step on this path? Well, perhaps what I'm going to do is I'm going to just look at podcasts, not even pitch any video. Let me just look and see what's out there. Let me see who's interviewing people like me and whose audiences would benefit from my book, but also from my story. That's another thing. It's a lot easier for us to share our stories than it is for us to be like, okay, here's my book. Read it like, okay, now let me talk about the transformation that I went through by working this process that I have written about. And then the book becomes sort of a secondary benefit. So you're still sharing your knowledge and the book is reinforcing that as I'm talking.
Anne Bartolucci [00:09:36]:
It's also thinking about, well, taking the pressure off of the book itself and allowing yourself to have, you know, as the kids are saying this day, allow yourself to have that main character energy as you're bringing it to the world.
Susan Friedmann [00:09:50]:
And it is that transformation because at the end of the day, just in story, you there's a transformation, something happens, you change from poor to rich or whatever the storyline goes. But in a nonfiction book, what you're offering is often a transformation because you've experienced something that it was a problem, it was a challenge, and somehow you found a result that worked for you and maybe that same result can work for your reader. That's what people are looking for. They're looking for solutions, solutions to problems, to challenges. How did you do it? Maybe I can do it and have this kind of success or a different kind of success than you had.
Anne Bartolucci [00:10:42]:
Exactly. And I think that's pointing to the trend of prescriptive memoirs. Whereas people are not writing memoirs so much as here's my story, but it's like here's my story and let me tell you what I learned helped.
Susan Friedmann [00:10:56]:
Yes, I'm getting a lot of that prescriptive memoir very much. And that's a tougher one to market. However, if it is looking at a transformation, not only your story, but this transformation that happened to then that makes it easier to find the right target audience, the right niche market to help push that book into the marketplace. Very much so. Is there like a simple fiction technique that, let's say any nonfiction writer could try to make not only their book more engaging and interesting, but even just content marketing piece that they might write in their blog, in their newsletter, or even talk about on a podcast.
Anne Bartolucci [00:11:49]:
Yeah. So the first thing that comes to mind, and this is something that I adapted from, I believe it was Chris Fox's right to market in the fiction world, which is to look and see what books are out there that are similar to yours and see what they are missing. What is the gap that you can fill? And that is where content marketing and also book structure starts. Is okay. What is my unique perspective here? And I also encourage people you know there because this can be a discouraging exercise. Right. Like, oh, there's so many books on mindfulness out there. Well, if you think about it, if it's a subject you love, how many books do you have on your shelf already about this topic? Probably a ton.
Anne Bartolucci [00:12:37]:
And you're still going to buy more new ones when they come out. And that's because your readers are interested in how your unique perspective can help them to understand things in a different way. And one of the best techniques that somebody can use is to think about the hook. When you start a fiction work, whether it's a novel or a novella or short story, you want to hook that reader from the very beginning. And sometimes I have found when I've read nonfiction books, that there's a bit of throat clearing that happens at the start. I mean, you've probably noticed this as well. And it's like, no, let's jump right into the hook. Let's see how we can immediately engage the reader not only with this is such cool information, but also with empathy.
Anne Bartolucci [00:13:28]:
How many times have you heard somebody say of a novel is like, well, I couldn't get into it because I had such a hard time connecting with the main character. But that happens with nonfiction as well. And so often I recommend that people will hook their readers with a story. And both of my nonfiction books do start off with a situation that I found myself in that helped me to realize that I needed to write the book with Business Basics for private practice. It was one of my toughest days in private practice, and I wish I'd had this resource. And for better sleep for the overachiever, it was, oh, I was giving this talk on insomnia, and I realized afterwards that people needed this particular angle on it. Like, I had the slide deck out in my waiting room in my office, and people would always pick it up, and they'd be like, when is this going to actually be a book? Okay, well, there's a good start.
Susan Friedmann [00:14:27]:
Yes, your audience is telling you what you should be doing, because we take it for granted sometimes, and we overlook some simple things that people need. And often, just asking your audience, where do you have challenges that need a solution? May be the answer to your problem. I really like the idea of throat clearing. Could you give me an example of that? I thought that was so cool.
Anne Bartolucci [00:14:57]:
Well, think about how many people actually read the introductions to nonfiction books. A lot of times those introductions are the throat clearing. It's like the author has to warm themselves up in order to get into what they really want to say. That's when I discuss whether to do an introduction or not. That's one thing I tell my students. Like, well, don't count on people to read it. Make it useful, but not absolutely necessary. And I wish I could think about a specific example of where it was, like, okay, when are we actually going to get to it? And I'm sorry, but I cannot.
Anne Bartolucci [00:15:39]:
But perhaps you can well, it's interesting.
Susan Friedmann [00:15:42]:
That you say and talk about the introduction as being potentially that throat clearing exercise, because often I want to see the introduction to a book because I feel that if it's well written, I should know basically what the book is all about. Now, I don't know the details, obviously, because in a couple of pages, let's say you're not going to be telling everybody what the book is in detail, but you can get the macro of what the book is about. And I think that's important for a well written book. But it's interesting that you say this is like, oh, getting into writing the book. What I love to do is to read books, you know, things that I've written and to see. And I was like, I don't recall ever writing that.
Anne Bartolucci [00:16:39]:
Yes.
Susan Friedmann [00:16:40]:
It's like, when did I write that? I mean, I remember sitting down and writing, but I don't remember writing that particular thought or that idea, that concept. I was like, wow, that's pretty good. I wonder where that came from.
Anne Bartolucci [00:16:58]:
Oh, yes, that happens to me all the time, both with fiction and nonfiction. Several years ago, I was going back through my Etherpsychics books, my Steampunk series, to adjust the language for audiobooks. Because when you're writing for audio, which, you know, at this point, everybody should be writing for audio, right? When you're writing for audio in fiction, you have to be very conscious about speech tags and making sure, you know, it's clear who's speaking, but not overwhelm the reader with he should. She said, whatever. And so I was reading back through these books and adjusting them and I told my husband, I'm like, you know, I feel like I'm reading something that was written by somebody else. And you know what, they're pretty good. He thought that was hilarious. He's like, I'm glad you think so.
Anne Bartolucci [00:17:41]:
I'm like, yeah, these plots are amazing, which is nice because a lot of times people will think that they're going to go back and read something that they wrote a lot earlier and be like, this sucked. Like, no, no happy surprises could be waiting for you.
Susan Friedmann [00:17:55]:
You also talked about looking at what other people have written in your subject and looking for a different angle, filling a gap that maybe missing. And I remember when I was writing Business Event Planning for Dummies, I wanted to trade show training. That was the subject that I wanted to talk about. And I was going to find a way to incorporate that into this book. So I went out and looked at all the books about event planning meetings to See what was said about trade shows. And pretty much everything that I read there was like a paragraph about trade shows. If there was a page, it was already a lot. I was like, yes.
Susan Friedmann [00:18:47]:
I ended up writing three chapters on trade shows in that book.
Anne Bartolucci [00:18:52]:
There you go. And have you gotten feedback from people that those were really helpful chapters?
Susan Friedmann [00:18:56]:
Oh, absolutely.
Anne Bartolucci [00:18:58]:
Yeah. A lot of times people don't know what's missing until you tell them what's missing.
Susan Friedmann [00:19:02]:
Yes. And doing your own research as to if you have a favorite topic that you feel you want to share with the world, how can you do that? What are other people saying? Which you rightly said. You look at, you know, books on mindset. There are a ton of books on mindset. I mean, it's a popular topic. However, there are gaps there that you might be able to fill. Who knows?
Anne Bartolucci [00:19:31]:
Exactly. And as you were talking about, people will often do this content marketing process at the end of writing their book, whereas it's so helpful to do from the very beginning. That's why when I do my accelerator, I have people do their marketing plan right from the start. And this is a big part of it. Interestingly, one of my students who went through the accelerator last fall, she's now fielding at least two, maybe more contract offers at this point because she had all of the information she needed from that marketing plan and the work that we did for a kick ass book proposal.
Susan Friedmann [00:20:12]:
That's an excellent segue into telling our audience about your cohort and the services that you offer.
Anne Bartolucci [00:20:22]:
Thank you. And yes, again, looking at the market, filling a gap with what's out there. Because a lot of book coaches offer one on one mentoring, which is awesome. However, I have found, again, through the fiction world that being in a critique group and having the support of other authors who are where you are can be so helpful and validating and encouraging because everybody secretly, or not so secretly, fears that their writing sucks. And so by going through the process in a cohort, you get to find out, well, maybe it does, but not as much as I think, or maybe it doesn't at all. I run an accelerator a couple, three times a year and this is eight weeks to first chapter, book outline and marketing plan. Yes, we focus a lot on the hook. We go more deeply into the content marketing than, of course, I mentioned here.
Anne Bartolucci [00:21:21]:
And I also guide them through, okay, let's talk about myth and fairy tale structure and use that to help you structure your book for the outline, to help you appeal to the audience, and again, make it more fun for you to write the Way to check that out is on my website, which is psychupacademy.com and if you would like to check me out beforehand, and I do encourage people to do this, I will be running a start your book challenge the second week of January, probably second into third week. And I had been doing it live, but I've been finding that it's so hard for people to fit live stuff into their schedule. So it's going to be more of an on demand with a live Q and A and opportunity for you to bring homework and talk to me about it. The link for that will be in the show notes.
Susan Friedmann [00:22:18]:
Absolutely. I'll put all that information in the show notes. I love the idea that you say that people think their writing sucks. It's like, oh, yes. The number of times that I've thought that I was like, does this make sense? And I've often used people in my mastermind group to say, hey, can you look at this? Is this okay? Does this make sense? And we do need other people to help us with that because writing can be a very lonely business. You're doing it on your own.
Anne Bartolucci [00:22:48]:
Yeah. And I didn't realize just how much this was needed until I ran the beta cohort. Then they said, okay, what's next? We want to stick together. We want to keep working with each other and writing with you. After the accelerator, if people, like, there is an opportunity for a mastermind, which is essentially, yes, they critique each other and they also get feedback from me. So it's essentially like an initial developmental edit on the book.
Susan Friedmann [00:23:15]:
So, so helpful to do that. And I can see. I know when groups sort of start blending and trusting and getting to know each other, especially through writing, because there's very personal aspects about writing that when you start sharing it with someone, you're building trust with each other. So, yeah, I can see that people want to stick together. It's like, hey, I want to be with that person. I like them.
Anne Bartolucci [00:23:43]:
Yes. They get my stuff.
Susan Friedmann [00:23:45]:
It's all good stuff. Anna, as you know, always have guests leave our listeners with a golden nugget. What's yours?
Anne Bartolucci [00:23:56]:
I would say embrace the plot twists. Writing a book and then marketing a book. It's a journey. You're going to have stumbles and delays and unexpected things that could derail you, and that's when you just yell plot twist and keep going, because there's going to be tons of good surprises along the way as well.
Susan Friedmann [00:24:18]:
Yeah. Unfortunately, that road isn't straight and it isn't smooth as much as you'd like it to be. Yeah, the twists and turns and roadblocks.
Anne Bartolucci [00:24:30]:
Exactly.
Susan Friedmann [00:24:32]:
Joanna, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. Such great stuff. Listeners, go back, listen to this. There's some very deep thoughts and deep ideas that Anna has shared. Go check them out again because you may have missed them first time around. I know I did, so I'm going to listen to them again because some very useful aspects about story how you can integrate that into your nonfiction writing. And listeners, if your book isn't selling the way you want it or expect it to, let's you and I jump on a quick call together to brainstorm ways to ramp up those sales. Because you've invested a whole lot of time, money and energy, and it's time you got the return you were hoping for.
Susan Friedmann [00:25:21]:
So go to bookmarketingbrainstorm.com to schedule your free call. And in the meantime, I hope this powerful interview sparks some ideas you can use to sell more books. Until next week, here's wishing you much book and author marketing success.
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