Susan Friedmann [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Book Marketing Mentors, the weekly podcast where you learn proven strategies, tools, ideas, and tips from the masters. Every week, I introduce you to a marketing master who will share their expertise to help you market and sell more books. Today, my special guest is Jamie Von Kaik. Jamie is CEO and lead strategist of Growing youg Team. She's on a mission to help creative women entrepreneurs build a team that truly loves their business. Jamie has developed a simple, foolproof system so you make the right hire the first time. Instead of using the trial and error process that costs time, money, and energy, she helps her clients streamline their hiring process to confidently expand their team. Jamie, it's a pleasure to welcome you to the show.
Susan Friedmann [00:00:52]:
So thank you for being this week's guest expert and mentor.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:00:56]:
Hi, Susan. Thank you so much for having me.
Susan Friedmann [00:00:58]:
Jamie, I invited you because as entrepreneurs and solopreneurs, many of our listeners are in business by ourselves. And there comes a point in our business that we say, help. I need help. So I believe that's where you come in. Let's talk about what may be some of the signs to know it's time to hire somebody to help you.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:01:27]:
Oh, I love this question. Because as business owners, we're just used to doing. We go, go, go. We have our to do list. Little things get added to it all the time, and next thing we know, we're overwhelmed and we feel like we're drowning in our business. But we never really take that time to step back and really evaluate our business to say, should I be hiring? Is it time? Because we're just too busy doing all the work. So I always encourage business owners to take a step back once a month if you can. If not, at least once a quarter, and look for these signs that it's time to hire.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:01:58]:
There's four of them. The first one is you're saying no to your idea client. So this is showing you that you're at capacity. There's people you want to work with, people who want to give you their money, but you're having to say, no, I'm sorry, I can't take you on as a client. Or you're trying to do that math in your head of like, okay, if I shift this around in my personal life, maybe I can take this person on. And you're just always doing kind of the math, like, you know, race and everything to see those calculations, can I bring someone else on? It's also one of those things. If you have a wait list that's working against you versus for you, it's a sign that it's time to hire, you have more work than you can really handle, and it's time to bring on someone else so you can expand the number of clients you can serve at a time. Sign number two is you're starting to lose customers because of your customer service level.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:02:46]:
So, so this could be that clients are no longer resigning their contracts or they're canceling contracts midway through because they feel like they're not getting the support that they expect from you. So it could be that you went from having a two day turnaround time to now you're having a week turnaround time and your clients are still having to follow up with you to ask where the deliverables are. Another way to look at this is you're losing customers before you ever have the opportunity to sign them on as a customer. If you are running a business and someone inquires and by the time you get back to their inquiry, they've gone someplace else because someone else responded faster, that's a sign that your customer service levels are lacking. And bringing someone else in to support either your customer service or other items in your business so you can focus on the customer service levels is one of the things that needs to happen in your business. Sign number three is you want to do something new and your business but you can't because it's going to take too much time and energy to implement compared to the time and energy that you have because you need to spend your time and energy on your current service offerings or your current products. A great example of this for your audience, Susan, is you're sitting there and saying, I want to write a book, but where am I going to find time to write a book because I still have to serve my clients. Where am I going to find time to market that book because I have to serve my clients.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:04:06]:
Where am I going to find time to do the speaking events that I might get from that book because I have to serve my clients. So you know this new thing is going to do something positive for your business, but you're trying to figure out how you build in that time to get it done. So that can be a sign that it's time to hire some level of support. And then the final sign is you lack important skill or knowledge that is needed for your business. This could be skill or knowledge for a one off project, or it could be ongoing skill or knowledge because you're going to do something new or add another layer or you're just realizing that you're really not good at something and you're struggling your way through it, where it'd be more cost effective to hire an expert to do it for you than it would for you to keep doing it yourself.
Susan Friedmann [00:04:52]:
Yeah, those are great points. And I'm like, oh my goodness. You've been through almost the whole history of me being in business for 35 years. It's like, okay. And I've been through many of those steps as I mentioned before we went on the air. Now let's talk about the difference between the type of people you could hire. You know, if it's full time, part time, give us some ideas of what we might be looking at.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:05:20]:
One of the things that I hear a lot of times when I tell business owners, okay, it's time for you to hire, like you just told me of XYZ going on in your business and you need to get support. And they immediately go, I don't have the money or the workload to give someone and have them be a full time employee. And I'm like, I always have to remind them that's fine, someone doesn't need to be a full time employee. Full time employees aren't the only type of worker that is out there. We can hire full time employees if our business is ready for that. We can also hire part time employees. So a part time employee could be anyone from a few hours a week to. This is one area where sometimes I think it depends on the state.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:06:01]:
I think some states it's 32 hours, some states it's 34 hours. I think some states it's 36 hours and so forth. But up until that 30ish hour mark, you can have a part time employee. My first employee was five hours a week. And then you could also have contractors. So contractors is another business that you're hiring to do work for your business. That could be a business of one. So think of a freelancer, a solopreneur that's doing work for your business, but you're hiring someone outside your business to do work for your business.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:06:30]:
And those contractor relationships can be ongoing. So think like a virtual assistant that you have that relationship with for a long period of time. Or a contractor could be someone that you bring in for a project or a specific need, someone that's going to help you just for this one item. And once that item is completed, you guys part ways.
Susan Friedmann [00:06:50]:
Now it's like, okay, how do I go about finding the right person?
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:06:56]:
Great question. This is where there's a lot we can talk about. I'll just give you some Highlights of really how to make sure you're finding the right person. So the first is you want to become very clear on who it is that you need to hire. And this is a combination of figuring out, well, what exactly is this person going to do for you? You know, that they need to do XYZ tasks for your business. One of the things that you should not be doing is hiring someone who is then going to figure out when they are on the job what their job is going to look like, because then you might end up hiring the wrong person. So you really need to be clear. I need these tasks done in my business, and these are the tasks that I need done in my business because they're going to help produce XYZ results.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:07:41]:
You want to make sure you're hiring for the right position that your business needs now. You also want to make sure that you're really clear on who you need to hire in terms of fits with you and fits within your organization. We really need to think about what is our culture. And even if you're a business of one, you have a culture that way you make sure you're bringing in someone that works well inside that culture. You do not want to bring in someone who is going to annoy you every day, even if they're fabulous at the work that they do, because that is just not going to be good for your working relationships. You need to figure out what does it mean to be successful? What does it mean to have good communication with you? What does it mean to have good project management skills and so forth so you can really picture who that idea candidate is. Then we need to set up a hiring process that speaks directly to that idea candidate. We want a job post that calls that idea candidate out.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:08:37]:
So when someone reads that job post, they say, yes, this is the job for me. This job post just explains me and my goals and my passions to a T. Someone else is going to read that and say, that is not me. That job sounds miserable and they're going to choose not to apply. We don't care about the people who are not applying. We want to make sure that the people our job is right for are nodding their head yes when they read it and submit their application. We then, when we go through the interviewing process, we want to make sure that we're asking interview questions that tie back to that idea candidate. Every question is telling us information that we need to know to determine if this person is aligned with their idea candidates.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:09:20]:
We don't want to ask generic or the really popular interview Questions that really tell you nothing. We want to make sure that this person is right for us versus just talking and having a conversation. Once you really find out if a person's right for you, you can then easily and clearly make a decision on who you should be hiring for your opening. And then once you make that hiring decision and they're starting with your organization having some sort of onboarding process, and this could be a very simple onboarding process for a contractor where you're just giving them the information that they need. Or maybe a little bit more complex and longer for an employee where you're really teaching them how all the ins and outs of how to do their job successfully inside your organization. For onboarding, we're typically not teaching them how to do the skills and everything that they should already know, but we're teaching them how to do that in ways that match your expectations.
Susan Friedmann [00:10:13]:
I wish I'd had this advice, as I say, umpteen years ago, to save that trial and error now. One of the things that held me back, Jamie, was I felt that I could do it better and faster than trying to hire somebody to do it for me. What are your thoughts on that?
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:10:33]:
There are some times where that is 100% true, but you have to think about it. If you have 30 minutes tasks a day that you're like, well, I can do this better and faster than someone else, okay, but you're still spending that 30 minutes on those tasks instead of spending those 30 minutes on something else. You need to pick and choose as a business owner where you spend your time. And yes, you can maybe do it a little bit faster, but you're also sacrificing other tasks to do those tasks. When it comes to really, let's nitpick on the faster and better. Well, sometimes you're just faster because you've been doing it inside your business and you know your expectations and everything so well that it's just second nature for you to do it as someone new comes in. They might take a little bit longer at first because everything is new for them. They're learning what your expectations are.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:11:28]:
They're learning your process. They're trying to make sure that they do things right. And that takes a little bit more time than it does to do something second nature and just do it. They will get faster over time when it comes to better. We're in this mindset of a lot of times as business owners is my way is the best way. And I always challenge business owners of what does it mean to do this task right And I need to know why that is the right way. And if you can't think of a way or a way to describe why this is right other than because I said so, then we have to let go and realize that our way might not necessarily be the best way. Someone else's way could be the right way to do something.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:12:18]:
Could be the more efficient way. Could be this little tweak and change that we need in order to be more successful. We really need to think about why is something wrong, why is something right in a way that we can communicate it to someone else so that way we can help them understand if someone is continuing to do something wrong, it's either because we haven't fully communicated that it's wrong and we're allowing them to keep doing it wrong, or. Or we need to learn to let go and say it's only wrong because it's different. And different is not bad. It's still producing the same output. For my client, for example, I need to let go and allow them to do it this way.
Susan Friedmann [00:12:57]:
Yes. And I wrote that down. That whole idea of letting go and trusting. I think the word trust comes up several times. I know that working with my virtual assistant is trusting that it might not be the way I would do it. Yet her way works, and that's okay.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:13:19]:
Yeah. I remember really early on, someone was looking for extra work to do. This is back in my corporate job. And I was like, all right, help put together this presentation for me. Here's the data that needs to go in. And then I was nitpicking when it came back of changing things around because it wasn't laid out the way that I wanted it laid out. And I stopped myself and said, but what is wrong with what she did? And it came back. I was just like, it's just because it's not where I would have put it.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:13:47]:
And I was like, does that really matter? At the end of the day, it's matching the brand needs and everything. It has the correct data. There it is visually clear, like there's nothing wrong but just changing the layout. And I was like, the layout is fine. It doesn't need to be done my way. She did a great job.
Susan Friedmann [00:14:03]:
Yeah. As you said, there are many ways to do things. There's not just only one way. Even though we think sometimes, oh, there's only one way to do it. And it's my way. It's like no other people work it out and do it differently. Now, one of the things that. And I've been very fortunate the last couple of years, I've got the best VA ever.
Susan Friedmann [00:14:26]:
And I know people online will say, no, I've got the best one. But for me, I've got the best one. Any event, what she's putting together as we go along is sop, standard operating procedure. That just in case somebody has to take over this position, it's all in place and they know exactly what they need to be doing, which is something that as a creative, I don't go into those analytical ways of doing things and writing things down like that. Talk to us about that process and how important that is.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:15:06]:
Yes, it is very important to have your processes mapped out. It is something that when you're a business of one, we really don't think about. And it's also one of those things. When I tell people when you're going to hire your very first employee, map out your process at a high level that this person's going to touch so you understand how those handoffs are going to go. But don't spend too much time on it until you get that person into your organization. Because once you have that person inside your organization, you're going to find out that, like I mentioned, there's going to be things that you're doing that are not the most efficient. That when another person is in here and you're actually working together on something, you're going to realize things need to change. There are going to be things that you never think to write down in your standard operating procedures, because for you, it's second nature.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:15:54]:
But now that you're training someone else, it's gonna be like, oh, yeah, like there is that step that I never thought of writing down, because why wouldn't you do that step? But for someone who hasn't done it before, knowing that step exists is important. I always say once you get that first person into the role and then they are doing the job, they've gone through the training, and you got that good flow down. That's a great time to write those standard operating procedures. Cause once again, like as you mentioned, Susan, if that person has to leave the role for whatever reason, the next person can help out. Also, as you continue to grow and expand your team, if someone is out of the office because they go on vacation, those standard operating procedures can be referenced while someone's trying to help back up that position while that team member's gone, because there might be items that still need to happen even though they're not there and can't wait for their return. That documentation is so important. But I always say, don't try to stress yourself out too much by doing them so too early. And I know there's probably process people that might be listening to this and say, but, but, but, so, but I would say if only if you're really working with someone that's outside your organization, that's really going to help nitpick the process.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:17:05]:
Don't stress too much until you have that person on your team so you can really understand the flow of work once there's more than you doing that process.
Susan Friedmann [00:17:15]:
And what I found too, Jamie, is that over time now, having worked with my VA for two years now, she is taking on things that I would never have dreamt of asking her to do in the beginning. And so it's grown. That position has grown to the point now and again, it goes back to the letting go, the trusting that she can do it for me.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:17:41]:
Yes, that happens all the time. I'm actually in the middle of working with an organization right now. They have roughly 50 employees. And we are going and kind of, we're rewriting all their job descriptions. And I've done this with a few organizations as we go in and rewrite their job descriptions because exactly what you described, Susan, happens in all organizations as we grow, we hire for roles that we need today. We write those job descriptions for what we need today and what's going on our business today. But roles naturally evolve and change as we trust more with letting go as our business evolves and changes. And we need to sometimes, even if the people stay the same in those roles, just go and update that documentation so the job description on paper actually matches what that person is doing.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:18:32]:
And sometimes when an organization gets large enough, like I said, the one I'm working with right now with it, this type of project, they have 50 employees. Sometimes when we find out when they get that big, is we also just need to kind of move some of the responsibilities around because as more roles get added to the organization, it makes more sense for maybe this marketing task to actually fall under the marketing team member versus the executive assistants doing it.
Susan Friedmann [00:18:57]:
Yeah. And there are jobs that happen. For instance, I'm applying for a copyright at the moment. I didn't think about that maybe three months ago, but it's come up. And so now it's looking at, well, what's needed for that process. And this is where my VA comes in and can help me out. And I never thought that she could, but she can. And excellent.
Susan Friedmann [00:19:23]:
What are some of the biggest mistakes that you see people make? And I'm sure you've already sort of implied them along the way, but let's pull them out and look at them under a magnifying glass.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:19:36]:
Yes. I would say the first thing is not being clear on who you want to hire. Especially with early on hires. We just think I just need a body. And the problem is you could hire someone that's fantastic at what they do. They just don't do what you actually need. So we need to make sure that we're hiring the person our business actually needs. So we need to become very clear on who we need to hire.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:20:02]:
The second thing that I'll cover for today is letting our emotions lead the process. There are many places throughout the hiring process that we can let our biases get in the way or we meet a candidate and they have this great story and you just want to support them. This happened to me very early on in my career where I met this candidate. He was a first generation college student. He worked a bunch of part time jobs throughout college to be able to afford to go to school. And he had now graduated. He was so excited to be able to find a job in his chosen career path. And I was sold hook, line and sinker on his story.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:20:41]:
And someone paused me when I said I wanted to give him the job. And they said, but can he do the work? And if you think so, why do you think that? And I just sat there and I was just like, oh, I don't know if he can actually do the job. Now that I was forced to think about it, what this person said to me, which has always stuck with me, is it's not your job to give a person a job. It's your job to find the right person for the role and you can help people in other ways. So we don't want to lead with emotions. Yes, we want to hire someone that we connect with, but we want to make sure they can do the job first and then bring our emotions into the process second. And then the last thing I'll say is not onboarding team members. Onboarding is so important.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:21:27]:
Most people don't see it as part of the hiring process. I consider it part of the hiring process because if you don't onboard well, you're gonna have to start all over with hiring because either you're gonna think that person's not capable of the job so you're gonna fire them, or they're more likely to leave on their own because they didn't get that great welcome and starting ramp into the organization. So onboarding is super super important. So when you don't onboard your team members well, they're more likely to leave the organization.
Susan Friedmann [00:21:57]:
I love when you talked about let your emotions get in the way. I know I've had that. Exactly the same situation is, oh, I feel sorry for this person. I want to give them a job. I want to help them. But those questions, but can they do the job? That's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. How long is sort of like a trial period because it's like a marriage or you've got to have this time where you want to get to know each other a bit better before you really consummate the whole relationship.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:22:29]:
I'm actually not a huge fan of trial periods. I think when you have a great hiring process and you do your due diligence in the hiring process, you should feel confident that you're bringing in the right person for the long term. However, as I mentioned, like, onboarding is a part of that hiring process. When people want to have trial periods, I remind them that this person has to be able to do the job. They have to be able to match your expectations. So if they're not matching your expectations, just like if five years from now they stop doing the job, you have a right to let that person go. We're not going to keep someone on. That proves to us their work style is completely different than we thought we uncovered in the interview process.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:23:13]:
During that onboarding process, we need to have goals and milestones, and these need to be realistic goals and milestones based on the onboarding process we put together. We can't expect someone to be fully trained and doing their job in 30 days. If we have a training process that's going to take 60 days, and maybe it's taking 60 days. Because we have really complicated processes. We have a lot of things we need to teach them to be successful in our organization and. And we need to balance that with our availability as business owners. We don't have 40 hours a week to train someone with a lot of onboarding. We train on topic A so they can do work A in our business, then we train on B so they can do work B, and eventually we get to the point where we've trained them on everything and they can do everything.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:23:58]:
But sometimes we have to start with just letting them do a little bit at a time and train them a little bit at a time. We need to set goals that says if I train them on abc, they should be able to do X by this date. Okay, can they do X by that date? If the answer is yes, Then we keep moving forward with that team member. If the answer is no, what happened? Have we tried training the team member on what they need to know five different times and they're still not getting it, then we let them go. If we have trained them once and then we're going through it again as a review and we're seeing improvements, well, let's give them a little bit more time to see if they continue to improve and get to the level that we need to be. I think when we put trial periods out there and we vocalize trial periods, we're also telling that team member, I don't trust you yet. And what do we hear when someone says they don't trust us? Well, I might be fired. I might be let go.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:24:58]:
And for some people that's going to be great motivation to come in and do excellent work. For other people, you just completely demoralize them. They're going to be battling themselves every day and sometimes that like was it self producing prophecy and everything? My boss thinks I'm not doing a good enough job and now my work slips because I'm so focused on my boss thinking I'm not doing a good enough job that I actually don't do a good enough job. I think we have to remember we have the right to let people go if they're not doing the job well. And we don't necessarily need, in my opinion, have to put formal trial periods out there because most states in the US are, we're allowed to fire for really no reason. We are allowed to get rid of people if they're not doing the job. We don't need to formalize it with a trial period.
Susan Friedmann [00:25:47]:
And that begs the question, how do you fire somebody nicely? This was the hardest thing for me to do is to let some people go because again, and I think it was again coming from the emotion I gave them a job and they weren't necessarily the right person and then having to tell them, I'm sorry, but I have to let you go.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:26:10]:
First off, I will say that if someone is not doing a good job for you, there should definitely be conversations before that conversation where you're terminating them. That's actually one of the things that I find that small business owners fail fail to do is they fail to give feedback. Sometimes it could be that person is not doing a good enough job because they think that they're doing the job correctly. You don't provide them feedback that they're not. So they continue doing what they think is right. And people sometimes think what they're doing is right because it's what their old boss wanted or from their point of view and how they interpreted what you said. This is what you wanted. We need to make sure that we're having those conversations to correct behavior.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:26:53]:
And if they're not correcting their behavior, they should be aware of that because we are letting them know that we're still not seeing the improvement that we need. That's the first thing is before you ever get to that termination conversation, there should have been conversations around their performance so they already know that they're not doing a good job when it comes to the actual conversation of letting someone go. What I have always been trained, and I always say you can seek the guidance of an employment lawyer for this, because I'm not a lawyer, so don't hold anything I say for legal things, but I was always trained. You say as little as possible in those conversations because anything you say then can be held against you if the employee decides to sue you. We were always trained just to say, your services are no longer needed, your position is being terminated, effective immediately. And not get into any details of why. Because if you tell your employee that they're being terminated for performance reasons, maybe you did have a million conversations with them, so they should know. But it doesn't mean that they're not going to come after and try to sue you for that, that you didn't try to work with them or things like that.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:28:03]:
We were always taught, say as little as possible during those actual termination conversations.
Susan Friedmann [00:28:09]:
But yet be nice about it if you can. I mean, that's never anything that you want to hear. And having been laid off three times, I've been through that, so I know how it feels.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:28:21]:
It feels horrible. And that's like one of the things. It's like sometimes when you have enough of the conversations ahead of time, that person already knows it's coming. It's not a surprise. And I think, like some of the other things, as you mentioned, layoffs, layoffs are sometimes a completely different thing still, when it comes to the end. Sometimes, you know, for legalese and everything, say as little as possible. But sometimes it's good to have open conversations with your team members even before things get there. For example, I had a team member, she was working for me 20 hours a week.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:28:53]:
What she was doing for my business, I wasn't going to be selling those packages as much anymore, so there wasn't going to be the work to support 20 hours of work anymore. And I told her, I was like, we can reduce your hours, or I can transition you to doing something else in the organization, something that you weren't hired for. But I can train you and get you up to speed if you want to stay on and want to keep the 20 hours that you have, or we're going to have to part ways. And because we were able to have that conversation about what's going on in the business and here are the options in front of her, she was then able to select that she couldn't reduce her hours. She didn't want to do work outside of what she was hired for because the other stuff really didn't match her passions, and that it would be best to part ways. That way she could go get another job that allowed her to focus on what she wanted to focus. And so we were able to part ways with that easy thing where it was like, here's a decision we made together. So sometimes it's having those conversations with your employees.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:29:52]:
They feel that they trusted that you made the right decisions when things are going to be shifting in your business or positions are going to be eliminated.
Susan Friedmann [00:30:00]:
That's a great segue, Jamie, for you to share with our listeners how they can have a conversation with you because you are so knowledgeable and I'm sure they heard it. So share how they can make contact with you.
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:30:16]:
Yes, you can get a hold of me by going to growingyourteam.com from there, you'll be able to schedule a meeting with me. If you want to get on my calendar, you can check out the Growing Your Team podcast. You and a lot of the other resources that we have. If you're in that spot where right now you're trying to figure out, what do I get off my plates? We do have the determine what to delegate worksheets that you can get a hold of and for free. And you can get that at growingyourteam.com delegate
Susan Friedmann [00:30:50]:
And as you know, we always have our guests share a golden nugget with our listeners. What's yours?
Jamie Van Cuyk [00:30:58]:
My golden nugget for you is as you're listening to Susan's podcast and thinking about your book publishing, your book marketing, and if it seems like a scary process, just ask yourself with everything, does it need to be done right or does it need to be done by you? And there's gonna be a lot of things in this process and there's gonna be a lot of things throughout your business that just need to be done right. They don't need to be done by you. And you can hire someone and you can train someone to do it right. You can also hire the people that are those extreme experts in it, so they probably know more of what it means to do these things right than you do right now based off of your limited expertise because you've never done it before. Always ask yourself that question if you're really struggling with is it the right time to delegate? Does it need to be done by you or does it need to be done right? And then get the support that you need because you don't need to do everything. And the answer to that question will change as your business grows and evolves and what your initiatives are. So some things that need to be done by you today, a year from now, five years from now, will no longer need to be done by you. And you can delegate those items as well.
Susan Friedmann [00:32:05]:
That's fabulous. And I've learned that through trial and error. So listeners, don't go my route, go Jamie's route instead. It's so much quicker and easier. Jamie, you've been amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. By the way, listeners, if your book isn't selling the way you wanted or expected to, let's you and I jump on a quick call together to brainstorm ways to ramp up those sales. You've invested a whole lot of time, money, and energy, and it's time you got the return you were hoping for.
So, go to bookmarketingbrainstorm.com to schedule your free call. And in the meantime, I hope this powerful interview sparks some ideas you can use to sell more books. Until next week, here's wishing you much book and author marketing success.
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